Sonic Academy Forum / Sonic - General Information / Music Tech Discussion / 99khz kick / Latest Posts

RE: 99khz kick

roben — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 11:55:18 GMT

Well i've removed it as a sub bass and made it ride higher than that , my kick is pushing the sub frequencies on it's own now, i've notched it out just after 100hz though to give the bass some room in that area.

However I've gotta admit that now i'm not sure I like my bass and think i'm going to change it, it sounds more electroy now rather than deep which is what I wanted.

In fact, i may just revert back to keeping my kick in the 99hz and bass riding the sub, f*ck knows, going to just have to play around but i've found this thread a lot of help, especially in regards to the whole panning thing.

RE: 99khz kick

jon_fisher — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 11:46:03 GMT

glad you've sorted it mate, how did you manage to notch out the high frequencies in your sub bass ?

RE: 99khz kick

roben — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 11:32:14 GMT

Cheers guys, much much clearer now :) :cool: :D

Know I can always count my SA lot to help me out :)

RE: 99khz kick

jon_fisher — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:45:46 GMT

[quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr]Ended up bringing my kick back down with a notch after 100hz to 150hz and then high passed my bass to 100hz, which in turn has a notch at 250hz.

It's sounding better but i'm still unsure i'll use the bass now, after all the hassle i may scrap it hah.:cool:[/quote]

with all instruments and sounds which are clashing with other sounds you'll need to treat both equally, if you notch one you'll need to give a little boost to the other in exactly the same frequency, each sound will have 3 areas where you'll possibly need to look.

even sub basses will have a low, mid and high that you'll need to deal with.

RE: 99khz kick

jon_fisher — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:57:36 GMT

[quote][b]phil johnston (10/03/2010)[/b][hr]

just keep messing about until it sounds sweet then play it in a club wonder why it sounds wick then blow your brains out cause nothing really makes any sense. then scrape your brains off the ground squish them back in to your head and start all over again. :w00t:
[/quote]

thats the one:D

RE: 99khz kick

phil johnston — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:58:23 GMT

The type of bass sounds in imogen heaps tracks are fuzzy with mids and tops even if shes panning them hard left and right to get some stereo sweetness the mastering engineer will mono everything below 200hrz probably. as was mentioned anything below that isnt directional and can only really cause problems.

gelling a kick and a sub is trial and error some kick and bass/sub combos sound great together some wont... depends on many different things... attack of kick/bass, harmonics, fundamental frequencies, pitch etc.

just keep messing about until it sounds sweet then play it in a club wonder why it sounds wick then blow your brains out cause nothing really makes any sense. then scrape your brains off the ground squish them back in to your head and start all over again. :w00t:

RE: 99khz kick

jon_fisher — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:51:53 GMT

RE: 99khz kick

jon_fisher — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:49:33 GMT

RE: 99khz kick

roben — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:18:48 GMT

Ended up bringing my kick back down with a notch after 100hz to 150hz and then high passed my bass to 100hz, which in turn has a notch at 250hz.

It's sounding better but i'm still unsure i'll use the bass now, after all the hassle i may scrap it hah.:cool:

RE: 99khz kick

chrismcg — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:57:42 GMT

I know two reasons to keep sub 200Hz or so in mono.

1. You can't cut it to vinyl, this was mentioned in one of the tips or tutorials on the site somewhere. Unfortunately I can't remember which one.
2. Low frequencies are not as directional as high frequencies, so there's not as much point panning them as they don't "move" as much.

Roben: I'd guess the reason it sounds better when you take the mono of your buss is because the two basses are phasing and cancelling parts of each other out in mono. You linked to [url=http://www.musicsoftwaretraining.com/blog/?p=123]this[/url] here before, maybe worth checking out your panned basslines using that technique.

One tip I've seen somewhere (maybe here?) is to split the signal into two using two chains, one with a low pass (say at 200 Hz) and one with a high pass at the same cutoff. Mono the low pass and do whatever you want with the signal through the highpass. There are also plugins like [url=http://nugenaudio.com/monofilter.php]monofilter[/url].

RE: 99khz kick

wickedged — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:34:33 GMT

This is something I've really struggled with, and still do. I've experimented with different combinations of low kick mid bass, or mid kick with low bass, but in my highly novice and amateur opinion am coming to the conclusion that it all depends on the combination of sounds within a particular track. Each one is different - just when i think I've cracked it and found a magic formula, the same approach sounds crap in another mix.

I suppose I'm saying the old maxim of use your ears. Technique takes you so far and is definitely helpful, but if it don't work, change it. :)

RE: 99khz kick

jon_fisher — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:12:30 GMT

[quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]jon_fisher (09/03/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]jon_fisher (09/03/2010)[/b][hr]stereo bass isn't always bad dude, but you need your main punch in the center of the mix.

[/quote]

So now you're saying panning bass is ok?

I'm so confused.

Ok basically this is what i've always thought was 'politicly correct' when it comes to low end sonics:

Keep your bass and kicks on mono.

I have however heard, read and seen in and from various sources that contradicts that theory.[/quote]

do you always read something thats not there, this maybe the reason for you struggling with information provided in future music[/quote]

Struggling with information? Not really, i read it and take it in, maybe that's why i'm so confused? Like i said, various sources seem to contradict each other all the time.
[/quote]

well i never mention panning dude, i said stereo two different things

RE: 99khz kick

roben — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:00:35 GMT

[quote][b]jon_fisher (09/03/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]jon_fisher (09/03/2010)[/b][hr]stereo bass isn't always bad dude, but you need your main punch in the center of the mix.

[/quote]

So now you're saying panning bass is ok?

I'm so confused.

Ok basically this is what i've always thought was 'politicly correct' when it comes to low end sonics:

Keep your bass and kicks on mono.

I have however heard, read and seen in and from various sources that contradicts that theory.[/quote]

do you always read something thats not there, this maybe the reason for you struggling with information provided in future music[/quote]

Struggling with information? Not really, i read it and take it in, maybe that's why i'm so confused? Like i said, various sources seem to contradict each other all the time.

RE: 99khz kick

jon_fisher — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:57:01 GMT

[quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]jon_fisher (09/03/2010)[/b][hr]stereo bass isn't always bad dude, but you need your main punch in the center of the mix.

[/quote]

So now you're saying panning bass is ok?

I'm so confused.

Ok basically this is what i've always thought was 'politicly correct' when it comes to low end sonics:

Keep your bass and kicks on mono.

I have however heard, read and seen in and from various sources that contradicts that theory.[/quote]

do you always read something thats not there, this maybe the reason for you struggling with information provided in future music

RE: 99khz kick

jon_fisher — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:52:24 GMT

[quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]jon_fisher (09/03/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]jon_fisher (09/03/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr]See this is the thing mate, everything is so vague and where one source tells you one thing, another source tells you the complete opposite!
I was watching the Imogen Heap thing today and even she said she pans basses.

F*ck dude i don't know whether i'm coming or going with this bass/kick issue right now.[/quote]

ian carey has said that he sometimes pans his kicks and bass, but hes talking maybe 3 or 4% not hard pan[/quote]

No no she was on about hard pans and even multi bases like for instance one 100% left, one 50% left and same other side. To give it more presence, i can see how this can work with a lot of things. Just confusing as to the bass, all i can see this doing is creating mud.

[/quote]

dude why would you do this ?[/quote]

I haven't? You tell me?[/quote]

but you understand the reason behind why you would do something like this.

RE: 99khz kick

roben — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:52:20 GMT

[quote][b]jon_fisher (09/03/2010)[/b][hr]stereo bass isn't always bad dude, but you need your main punch in the center of the mix.

[/quote]

So now you're saying panning bass is ok?

I'm so confused.

Ok basically this is what i've always thought was 'politicly correct' when it comes to low end sonics:

Keep your bass and kicks on mono.

I have however heard, read and seen in and from various sources that contradicts that theory.

RE: 99khz kick

roben — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:47:56 GMT

[quote][b]jon_fisher (09/03/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]jon_fisher (09/03/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr]See this is the thing mate, everything is so vague and where one source tells you one thing, another source tells you the complete opposite!
I was watching the Imogen Heap thing today and even she said she pans basses.

F*ck dude i don't know whether i'm coming or going with this bass/kick issue right now.[/quote]

ian carey has said that he sometimes pans his kicks and bass, but hes talking maybe 3 or 4% not hard pan[/quote]

No no she was on about hard pans and even multi bases like for instance one 100% left, one 50% left and same other side. To give it more presence, i can see how this can work with a lot of things. Just confusing as to the bass, all i can see this doing is creating mud.

[/quote]

dude why would you do this ?[/quote]

I haven't? You tell me?

RE: 99khz kick

egg2 — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:47:02 GMT

someone told me that theres a quad mono plug that lets you get multiple stereo outputs from one channel ?

RE: 99khz kick

jon_fisher — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:39:29 GMT

[quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]jon_fisher (09/03/2010)[/b][hr]whats the point in panning two sounds to return it back to a mono, i really struggle to know what that would achieve[/quote]

Logically it makes no sense, but there is a difference in sound when you hear either both channels together centre pan as opposed to them hard panned then grouped and then mono'd.

Weird.[/quote]

it will sound different, your sending it through two buss channels! send it through another two and it will sound different again and again and again.

panning a signal is fine! but putting it back to mono is pointless, you're just simply pulling the signal back to the center of the mix

RE: 99khz kick

jon_fisher — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:32:01 GMT

[quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]jon_fisher (09/03/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr]See this is the thing mate, everything is so vague and where one source tells you one thing, another source tells you the complete opposite!
I was watching the Imogen Heap thing today and even she said she pans basses.

F*ck dude i don't know whether i'm coming or going with this bass/kick issue right now.[/quote]

ian carey has said that he sometimes pans his kicks and bass, but hes talking maybe 3 or 4% not hard pan[/quote]

No no she was on about hard pans and even multi bases like for instance one 100% left, one 50% left and same other side. To give it more presence, i can see how this can work with a lot of things. Just confusing as to the bass, all i can see this doing is creating mud.

[/quote]

dude why would you do this ?

RE: 99khz kick

jon_fisher — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:27:29 GMT

stereo bass isn't always bad dude, but you need your main punch in the center of the mix.

RE: 99khz kick

roben — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:24:19 GMT

[quote][b]jon_fisher (09/03/2010)[/b][hr]whats the point in panning two sounds to return it back to a mono, i really struggle to know what that would achieve[/quote]

Logically it makes no sense, but there is a difference in sound when you hear either both channels together centre pan as opposed to them hard panned then grouped and then mono'd.

Weird.

RE: 99khz kick

roben — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:23:13 GMT

[quote][b]jon_fisher (09/03/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr]See this is the thing mate, everything is so vague and where one source tells you one thing, another source tells you the complete opposite!
I was watching the Imogen Heap thing today and even she said she pans basses.

F*ck dude i don't know whether i'm coming or going with this bass/kick issue right now.[/quote]

ian carey has said that he sometimes pans his kicks and bass, but hes talking maybe 3 or 4% not hard pan[/quote]

No no she was on about hard pans and even multi bases like for instance one 100% left, one 50% left and same other side. To give it more presence, i can see how this can work with a lot of things. Just confusing as to the bass, all i can see this doing is creating mud.

RE: 99khz kick

jon_fisher — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:13:39 GMT

[quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr]See this is the thing mate, everything is so vague and where one source tells you one thing, another source tells you the complete opposite!
I was watching the Imogen Heap thing today and even she said she pans basses.

F*ck dude i don't know whether i'm coming or going with this bass/kick issue right now.[/quote]

ian carey has said that he sometimes pans his kicks and bass, but hes talking maybe 3 or 4% not hard pan

RE: 99khz kick

jon_fisher — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:08:14 GMT

whats the point in panning two sounds to return it back to a mono, i really struggle to know what that would achieve

RE: 99khz kick

roben — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:07:01 GMT

See this is the thing mate, everything is so vague and where one source tells you one thing, another source tells you the complete opposite!
I was watching the Imogen Heap thing today and even she said she pans basses.

F*ck dude i don't know whether i'm coming or going with this bass/kick issue right now.

RE: 99khz kick

howiegroove — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 19:55:11 GMT

[quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr]
But do you guys think a 99khz kick is going to be beefy enough for a club system? It's definitly not as beefy as it was before, but i want a low end bass.[/quote]

You wont really know until you actually play it in a club.

[quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr]I'm aware i need to make a compromise somewhere, simply sidechaining them together before wasn't cutting it and Future Musics states in it's latest Bass Issue and i quote: "Sub plus sub doesn't equal 'better sub'. Two subs will almost always produce a clash that may sound great on your system but will almost certainly go crazy when you play it anywhere else."[/quote]

Dude, you have to get it out of your head about FM/CM. They give good info, but they are very vague on their details. Adding waveforms on top of that will can give you some big phasing issues. Thats why when you hear of people layering, they remove the highs from one sample and the lows in another to get rid of those issues. For instance, they might love the click of one kick, but the lows in another. Do some research on this outside of those dumb magazines brother and you will find out for yourself.

Ok so yeah, is a 99khz kick ok???

[quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr]Also I'm aware i need to have my low ends on mono, but i've two basses together which create a nice sound and have panned one hard left and the other hard right. [/quote]

NONONONONONONO!!!

[quote][b]roben (09/03/2010)[/b][hr]I've grouped them together under one buss and compressed and put a mono over it, however it sounds much better without the mono on it.
Is keeping the mono off, a bad idea?
Wondering if sonicly it's going to cause troubles later on in the club, or whether i can get away with it.
I've read on a few sources that it's ok to pan basses like i've done but they almost always get mono'd after a group?
Rules are made to be broken or in this case, it really shouldn't?

Really need engineer comments on this whole thread, thanks.
[/quote]

its not the smartest thing to do dude. Can it be done? I'm sure it can, but it is not fundamentally sound, and it will sound like crap 19 times out of 20. On top of that, it should only really be done by a top notch engineer.

RE: 99khz kick

roben — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 19:51:20 GMT

[quote][b]howiegroove (09/03/2010)[/b][hr]it would be very hard to hear 99kHZ.

Do you mean 99Hz?[/quote]

My bad mate, i meant hz.

RE: 99khz kick

howiegroove — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 19:48:28 GMT

it would be very hard to hear 99kHZ.

Do you mean 99Hz?

99khz kick

roben — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 19:40:26 GMT

Ok going on from another thread on here I was having some troubles with my bass and kick sitting nicely. Anyways I've sorted it now, but basically by transposing my kick up an octave. It now sits at 99khz.

But do you guys think a 99khz kick is going to be beefy enough for a club system? It's definitly not as beefy as it was before, but i want a low end bass.
I'm aware i need to make a compromise somewhere, simply sidechaining them together before wasn't cutting it and Future Musics states in it's latest Bass Issue and i quote: "Sub plus sub doesn't equal 'better sub'. Two subs will almost always produce a clash that may sound great on your system but will almost certainly go crazy when you play it anywhere else."

Ok so yeah, is a 99khz kick ok???

Also I'm aware i need to have my low ends on mono, but i've two basses together which create a nice sound and have panned one hard left and the other hard right.
I've grouped them together under one buss and compressed and put a mono over it, however it sounds much better without the mono on it.
Is keeping the mono off, a bad idea?
Wondering if sonicly it's going to cause troubles later on in the club, or whether i can get away with it.
I've read on a few sources that it's ok to pan basses like i've done but they almost always get mono'd after a group?
Rules are made to be broken or in this case, it really shouldn't?

Really need engineer comments on this whole thread, thanks.