hi guys,
i’m a pretty experienced musician. i’ve been writing and recording songs for ten years, studying music theory for almost as long and have a pretty good rock band that i write and do most of the production for. i was recently turned on to edm and fell in love immediately.
the way i’ve always written and produced songs is very formulaic. the composition process is basically writing out every instrument/track in guitar pro (very basic midi/notation software), and editing the parts within that software until the song is complete. then i move on to pro tools to track and produce, but the arrangement and song itself doesn’t change.
after 5 months of fiddling around with edm in pro tools and ableton, i’ve determined that this formula does not work for me. i need that structure that guitar pro gives me - basically having the song completely arranged and composed before production even starts.
one of the main problems i’m having is that so much of edm is effect based. filter sweeps, arpeggiation…none of these things can be represented in midi/guitar pro. so i tried composing in ableton and pro tools to absolutely no success. sure, some melodies, beats, chord progressions, etc can be written out in guitar pro, but it doesn’t feel like enough.
i would love to hear techniques that you use to keep track of song structure outside of a daw, or any advice you guys have for me. all i want to do is make some sweet beats, but my old habits are really getting in the way.
thanks 
Depending upon your definition of EDM, most electronic music doesn’t have the same verse-chorus-break structure a typical rock-band song has. It’s more about slow evolution to some goal like a climax or a break, and concentration on sounds that are designed in a way that helps one get to those important points of a tune. Coming from such a strong rock orientation, it’s just going to take practice and an open mind to shift your style. It’s not about breaking habits, it more about absorbing other ones.
J
[quote]alexruimy (18/06/2011)[hr]hi guys,
i’m a pretty experienced musician. i’ve been writing and recording songs for ten years, studying music theory for almost as long and have a pretty good rock band that i write and do most of the production for. i was recently turned on to edm and fell in love immediately.
the way i’ve always written and produced songs is very formulaic. the composition process is basically writing out every instrument/track in guitar pro (very basic midi/notation software), and editing the parts within that software until the song is complete. then i move on to pro tools to track and produce, but the arrangement and song itself doesn’t change.
after 5 months of fiddling around with edm in pro tools and ableton, i’ve determined that this formula does not work for me. i need that structure that guitar pro gives me - basically having the song completely arranged and composed before production even starts.
one of the main problems i’m having is that so much of edm is effect based. filter sweeps, arpeggiation…none of these things can be represented in midi/guitar pro. so i tried composing in ableton and pro tools to absolutely no success. sure, some melodies, beats, chord progressions, etc can be written out in guitar pro, but it doesn’t feel like enough.
i would love to hear techniques that you use to keep track of song structure outside of a daw, or any advice you guys have for me. all i want to do is make some sweet beats, but my old habits are really getting in the way.
thanks :)[/quote]
if you are trying to get your head around the basic arrangement I would say use a ghost track with a track you like
load it into an audio track in arrangement view in ableton and you willl can pretty much see the arrangement in the waveform
lots of people do this - it helps keep your focus on an arrangement that you know works
its not about copying the melody or whatever but lets you get familiar with the arrangement of a typical dance track
some of the big name guys use previous tracks they have done as a ghost track as they know that a certain track works well one the dancefloor (for example)
so if they follow that basic structure its likely that it will help it the new track succeed in the desired situation ( eg dancefloor again)
i know EXACTLY what your talkin about.
i play guitar pretty well and I can write a song on the guitar pretty easily.
a lot of times when I go to write a dance song… its actually a song that I have written on the guitar prior to the point of me actually sitting in front of ableton and doing the project. what I like to do is find my intro/hook/riff on the guitar. Get my chords for my chorus/verse/bridge whatever. So now I basically have all the pieces that you would normally put together for a song on the guitar or piano… and then i record the midi for those parts in ableton.
recording the midi takes a little time. i have a midi guitar that is like a rockband guitar but it syncs with ableton and allows me to record the notes as I play. if that doesnt work (cause sometimes it doesnt depending on the riff) then i bust out the acoustic and just tab each note to a midi note 1 at a time until I get it perfect. once you do this tho you have your midi setup for your song that you wrote on the guitar.
once you have the midi its a cinch. you learn techniques to expand on the basic stuff you have and it can really start to open up. best thing is now that you have your midi you can take your drums and create like 3 or 4 sounds and just layout the track. you can feel it in the timing of it when u do it. think of it as a ghost arrangement with all the basic parts you have recorded.
from there it takes many days and hours to refine + improve the project. new sounds, fx, automation, additional riffs and extracted melodies. practice makes perfect. after a while you will get it. try to think about writing a song from 3 or 4 chords. thats it. dont worry about verse intro all that stuff. if u can play, then im damn sure you have a 4 chord riff you like to rock out too. record the midi for that, and you got yourself a song. remember to simplify it to its most basic form and you will be on ur way.
producing is more about patterns then it is notes.
Definitely agree it’s best to use a ghost track. Find a track you like, warp it to it’s original BPM, put it in Arrangement view take a look at it’s structure using the time line. Probably the best way.
Yep use a ghost track and analyse it - see where everything lays - most 4to4 edm is pretty much straight forward - it can be a bit boring at first - but once you mastered it you’ll be fine
[quote]JamieinNC (18/06/2011)[hr]It’s more about slow evolution to some goal like a climax or a break, and concentration on sounds that are designed in a way that helps one get to those important points of a tune.[/quote]
yes, this is very true and definitely something it took me awhile to realize. the goals of the genres are very different.
i love the idea of using a ghost track, thanks guys. i will be trying that out.
unitedvision, i have one of those midi guitars too. i think you’re talking about the yourock? i bought and immediately returned it because the tracking was brutal (ended up going with a brian moore iguitar for midi tracking).
[quote]alexruimy (21/06/2011)[hr][quote]JamieinNC (18/06/2011)[hr]It’s more about slow evolution to some goal like a climax or a break, and concentration on sounds that are designed in a way that helps one get to those important points of a tune.[/quote]
unitedvision, i have one of those midi guitars too. i think you’re talking about the yourock? i bought and immediately returned it because the tracking was brutal (ended up going with a brian moore iguitar for midi tracking).[/quote]
yah its def the yourock. i only use it as a scratch pad. its def not perfect.
i’d love to get me the MOog Guitar. but i never heard of the iguitar…
these look cool.which 1 do you have?
ableton with a midi controller, loads of different parts and see what happens, you will come up with ideas that you would’nt other wise