Can this be done?

I know if you copy a song like similair melodie etc you can get into trouble but how is it with arrangement? Ive seen so many top producers that load a ghost track and use that to do their arrangements. I mean all there musical parts are original etc they probably add some things as well but this seems like a grey area. So i was just wondering if you copy an arrangement but with your own sounds and music etc can you get into trouble? Or will people even notice ? lol.

I’d go as far to say this is fairly standard practice.



I know people that actually map out empty midi clips in the right places matching the ghost track (even noting if the kick drum changed in the title etc)



They then base their own track around that. This was also taught to me as a training aid.



I see nothing wrong with it at all, and would say it is all part of the learning process. Once you’ve done it to a couple of really good tunes you’re gonna have a better understanding of the process.

To confirm, we’re just talking about when the break down comes in, when the bassline drops out, when they use fills etc?



Not the actually copying of note arrangement etc?

I dont think there would be any issues with that, your not ripping off anyone meldoies or anything like that. I’ve had tracks signed where I’ve followed someone elses arrangement and had no issues.

I use tracks I like for a template, but things always end up moved around anyway and the end track structure usually diifers quite a lot from the track whos structure I copied.

In rock/pop music this is so common it’s taught in songwriting classes and tip lists and stuff to just go by a formula for your arrangement. I don’t see any problem with it, it’s not like somebody’s gonna listen to your song and whichever one you picked as your ghost track back to back and say “hey the arrangement is exactly the same that’s plagarism”.



So yeah I’d say it’s totally safe, but don’t tie yourself down to an arrangement, if you want to try something different do it.

I often do that for inspiration

No im talking about copying exactly where there breakdown happens where there bassline comes in or where they have a fill or drop the kick etc im not talking copying their music or vocals etc.


No im talking about copying exactly where there breakdown happens where there bassline comes in or where they have a fill or drop the kick etc im not talking copying their music or vocals etc.


[quote]jjdejong0 (14/01/2011)[hr]No im talking about copying exactly where there breakdown happens where there bassline comes in or where they have a fill or drop the kick etc im not talking copying their music or vocals etc.

[/quote]

Me too.

[quote]TheAnt (14/01/2011)[hr][quote]jjdejong0 (14/01/2011)[hr]No im talking about copying exactly where there breakdown happens where there bassline comes in or where they have a fill or drop the kick etc im not talking copying their music or vocals etc.



[/quote]



Me too.[/quote]



Me three, just thought I’d clarify exactly what we meant.

I’d say it’s fairly common, and I’ve never heard anyone get in trouble for it. If someone accused another producer of it I’d doubt they’d even be able to prove it because I’m sure their song wasn’t the first to use that arrangement.



Heck, even SA does it in the ableton How to Make Electro House - Fedde le Grande tutorial. :stuck_out_tongue: Check it out.

If you could get in trouble for it then most pop song writers would be in sh*t for using the formula: Intro, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Bridge, Chorus, Outro



Or to similar effect.

But heres another angle. Say your favourite producer is Armin van Buuren, and you take his track Communication or whatever. Copy the arrangement but your own music etc etc but then you obviously want Armin to support/sign your track so you send it to him. Do you not think hes gonna be upset and not sign your track on the basis that you copied his arrangement even if the track is good? Just a rough example btw but you get what i mean. I mean should you avoid sending your track to the person whos arrangement you have copied? Or do you reckon they wont care/wont hear it etc?

I’d be surprised if he even noticed to be honest.



We might like to think otherwise, but the core of music is much more formulaic than we’d like to admit. Break, drop, fill, chorus etc. Most of the time our brain expects certain things to happen anyway…


Yeah, if I was Armin in that situation I wouldn’t care as long as your track didn’t copy anything other than the arrangement. And like bangthedj said he probably wouldn’t notice, he’d probably have to sit down with a pen and paper comparing the songs to notice that.



And to be clear I was also talking about arrangement not riffs or vocals on the first page.

no ones gonna notice… not even Armin.

Yeah ok thats cleared it up makes producing tracks a whole lot easier now.

Can you guys give us an example? i.e a template that you copy. Because if all your doing is following an arrangement theres no problem with that. I cant seem to find any of these “ghost” arrangement patterns your talking about can you help us out? thanks :slight_smile:

Make your own, it’s a great learning exercise.



If nothign else, that would be my primary reason for doing it, the actual analysing process.



Drop a track you like into a channel in your daw, then follow it along bar by bar (or in 4 bar sections) drawing in empty midi clips for each ‘part’ (kicks, bass, lead etc).



Then name the midi clips ‘4x4 kick’ or ‘kick drum roll’ ‘bassline high pass filter out’ etc.



It’s quite a task to do it to that detail, but you will get your head inside a tune like never before, and even start noticing things that otherwise you might have missed.



If someone just gave you the template, you’d miss out on all that part, which for my is much more valuable.