Doesn’t matter if you’re a dj a producer, remix artist or jack of all trades we can’t just do this for the love of it.
WHY ?
A: Because we will end up killing what we love !!!
When i first started Playing in clubs promoters paid money (cash in hand) , if you played poor then you wouldn’t be booked again. However if you played well and eventually got a little following you could up your price a little at a time and the promoter would (usually) pay.
REASON
because the promoter has booked the venue and used money from his own pocket to fund this event and would like to see some return. This is why he pays for dj’s that have a following play well and can keep the night going. for him it was about earning money.
THE REASON ITS GONE WRONG
Simple people started “DOING IT FOR THE LOVE” (most of the time mean they didn’t value themselves) its good to love what you do but the second you take money out of the equation there’s no pressure to do well. Dj’s no longer worry if they mess up because they were not getting paid, Promoters don’t loose sleep over a crap night because they didn’t spend all there money and time promoting this event and the venue isn’t bothered because they only hosted the event on a Wednesday to boost midweek beer sales and lost no money.
this goes for record labels, producers, promoters, dancers, dj’s, rig owners, venues.
SOLUTION
Next time you hear your mate or yourself telling someone else “IT’S OK DON’T PAY ME I’LL DO IT FOR THE LOVE OF IT” Give them a big hard slap round the face and shout “F@CK OFF YOU TW@T YOU’RE KILLING US”
one of the major reasons it hard to find a good night, with good dj’s in a nice venue is because not many (apart from the big promoters) are actually putting any money at risk.
this is the same with record sales and labels not many of the digital labels put anything down to start with, you can’t simply rely on spamming myspace and soundcloud to make money you need to invest.
If phil and bry stopped charging everyone to come on here this place would firstly drop quality of the tutorials and secondly shut simple as that. and the same goes for anything to do with the music industry.
I hear ya bro 
It’s kinda true. When I first started djing I did a thing for the owners where I would Dj the first time for free and after that my standard fee. This goes well for the owners cos they bookyou once and then never again. It’s just really hard ATM a nightclub was voted the worst thing to start cos there’s just no money in it. The costs attached plus your personal costs are too high for what is essentially two nights of trading. If you notice alot of ‘clubs’ aren’t even clubs their just buildings which get rented out to people putting on a night. Tbh the UK is lucky that there is such a lively student nightlife which means that they can get people in during the weekdays but even they are struggling. This isn’t about doing things for free, alot of things including the smoking ban are killing the business of pubs, clubs, bars etc. Alot of things need to change in Europe or you might get a situation where there are limited numbers of clubs per country. This isn’t crazy and is actually what most European governments want. You see the powers that be don’t like you going out and getting wasted and through sly passings in the law they are making it harder and harder. But there is a bit of hope, we have the booze and ciggeret companies on our side and there fighting in our corner. Wether this is morally right is a whole other debate. But remember, the music industry is dying as is the nightlife industry. Promising times…
still doesn’t mean you should do things for free, there should always be something in it.
For instance i mod this forum and although i love the forum and people on it i do it for my subscription fee (get to learn for my work) fair deal
I make tutorials on youtube for my own personal gain and should eventually pay off for me, if i didn’t think it would i wouldn’t do it.
i don’t really dj these days but when i do i do it for my set fee and i always get it.
But most of the younger guys are shooting themselves in the foot because i always here them tell promoters “i’ll do it for free mate” makes me wanna kick them and shout at least get drunk off the promoter ffs.
when i first started playing i used to play for a guy who would say he would pay me based on how much drink he sold and every week he had a different excuse my fav being “lot of people dancing lad but no ones drinkin” so i stopped playing for him and he started paying me
yeah when I was doing the promoting thing... this happened all the time. For myself, 95% of the time I actually stayed away from this and only booked quality acts that I knew would bring people. but I would talk 2 other promoters and DJs and they would constantly be talking about stuff like this.
lets be honest tho. DJs are a dime-a-dozen. over the past 5-10 years there has been an exponential increase in the number of DJs around. for the reason of supply and demand, many DJs to your point are simply over saturating the market and causing prices to plummet. its kinda like the economy. lol. in this regard it also has to do with many promoters dont give a **** about paying djs when they know that they can find somebody to do it for free. however as a promoter I can tell you that this doesnt always work. more often then not, the guys that dj for free basically have no following so it doesnt do much at all anyway.
i don't DJ out... and if somebody asked me to play... There is no way i'd do it for free.
+1 for this thread. keep high standards so that you don't screw yourself over.
[quote]UnitedVision (06/10/2010)[hr]
yeah when I was doing the promoting thing… this happened all the time. For myself, 95% of the time I actually stayed away from this and only booked quality acts that I knew would bring people. but I would talk 2 other promoters and DJs and they would constantly be talking about stuff like this.
lets be honest tho. DJs are a dime-a-dozen. over the past 5-10 years there has been an exponential increase in the number of DJs around. for the reason of supply and demand, many DJs to your point are simply over saturating the market and causing prices to plummet. its kinda like the economy. lol. in this regard it also has to do with many promoters dont give a **** about paying djs when they know that they can find somebody to do it for free. however as a promoter I can tell you that this doesnt always work. more often then not, the guys that dj for free basically have no following so it doesnt do much at all anyway.
i don’t DJ out… and if somebody asked me to play… There is no way i’d do it for free.
+1 for this thread. keep high standards so that you don’t screw yourself over.
[/quote]
thanks and of course this doesn’t just apply to dj’s i used that because i know it well.
if we always used the same method of thinking we can get rid of the crap and maybe start build the scene back up.
you’re rules should be simple
i know that i won’t anymore sign for a label that doesn’t invest in promoting my product and if i can’t find anything out about them other than a soundcloud of my space page i won’t touch them with a barge poll.
i don’t know if you can remember the hard dance track i put up on sound cloud, it took me a few hours to make and was done with next to no passion. i left that on sound cloud for a month where i had 21 offers from labels to sign it most of which offered me around the same kinda contract which i know i would have made nothing from, none of these companies had anything other than tracks release by the label owner, no form of promoting other than spam soundcloud and myspace.
the track made me money anyway because i won a bet with a friend.
im not saying don’t make music for the love of it, because thats what i do just don’t SELL YOUR MUSIC for nothing DON’T SELL YOUR SKILLS FOR NOTHING.
absolutely it applies to productions as well.
I had some label hit me up about a recent track asking me if I wanted to sign…
I said no… because:
- the track had flaws and I dont wanna put out sub-par music
- the label was aboslutely no-name and didn’t even have a website.
- getting signed for the sake of being signed is not worth it in my opinion.
the way I see it is…
we only get better over time. so don’t rush it. do what you love and hold yourself to your standards.
[quote]UnitedVision (06/10/2010)[hr]absolutely it applies to productions as well.
I had some label hit me up about a recent track asking me if I wanted to sign…
I said no… because:
- the track had flaws and I dont wanna put out sub-par music
- the label was aboslutely no-name and didn’t even have a website.
- getting signed for the sake of being signed is not worth it in my opinion.
the way I see it is…
we only get better over time. so don’t rush it. do what you love and hold yourself to your standards.
[/quote]
so glad i have someone that share my opinion.
the funny thing is some people actually believe that Toolroom Records got were it is in 4-5 short years through quality releases…hahahaha NO!!! it was hard work and investment good marketing. none of the artist on toolroom did anything for free and i’ve heard more than one or two tracks on this forum that far out perform the productions on toolroom but you guys will happily sell it for nothing just to get signed.
Some interesting ideas there actually. Initially I thought it you were ust going to be provocative, but it makes a lot of sense.
My only concern is that, sadly, it’s a bit of a one way street. If ‘we’ could pull it back up to a strong (finance rewarded) standard then cool, but there will always be someone willing to give it away… and with more people making music/DJing/whatever than ever before it’s not likely to change.
We need to turn off the internet really.
Definitely right on point man .i used to play sometimes for free when i started to Dj 10 years ago . back then was different because there were not to many Djs .
but i think every Dj has been on that stage that people abused your talent and not paid you. lesson learned .
Dont Dj for free unless it is for friends and family of course.
many Promoters who try to be sneaky are abusing of this more than before.
this is for the new Djs :
!!DONT do GIGs FOR FREE. 
[quote]bangthedj (06/10/2010)[hr]Some interesting ideas there actually. Initially I thought it you were ust going to be provocative, but it makes a lot of sense.
My only concern is that, sadly, it’s a bit of a one way street. If ‘we’ could pull it back up to a strong (finance rewarded) standard then cool, but there will always be someone willing to give it away… and with more people making music/DJing/whatever than ever before it’s not likely to change.
We need to turn off the internet really.[/quote]
i know and that’s the sad truth.
originally people would still take work from their friends and other djs but they would do it using skills, ability and hardwork. nowadays people get work by undercutting each other but then lets face it why would a promoter pay more for the same 15 million dj’s and they all play the same track list, new dj’s buying what known dj’s are charting.
I know it will never stop…
Tbh it surprises me how shockingly bad some so called dj’s are it’s them that need to be shot they are ruining the Market but hey a promoteris running a limited funds show he’s almost always gonna take billy Dj who will do it for free cos most promoters of your average night will just think people come get pissed and won’t really notice the Dj or quality 2 minute long mixes. This is a fundemental flaw because ask anyone the music makes the night. You don’t need to be topping beatport charts for locals to at least say oh yeah such and such a place plays really good music. They may not even know there is a Dj but just saying the music is good there is something that can pull punters. That and fit drunk slags…
well this is what i say to those promoters, record labels, club owners.
IF YOU AINT GOT THE MONEY TO INJECT IN YOUR PROJECTS GET A LOAN, INVESTORS, PARTNERS OR GIVE IT UP, STEP ASIDE STOP PLAYING WITH THE REAL MEN AND GIVE THOSE WHO ARE WILLING TO TAKE A RISK ON THEIR PROJECT A CHANCE TO GET BACK TO MAKING GOOD MONEY.
AND IF YOU’RE THINKING OF STARTING A NEW NIGHT OR LABEL “DON’T” UNLESS
- YOU HAVE FUNDS
- YOU HAVE TIME AND ENERGY
- YOU REALLY WANT TO MAKE IT WORK
- YOU HAVE A GOOD BUSINESS SENSE
i agreee with everything you are saying jon however if i had not waived my fee on occasion i would not of got to do half the best gigs i’ve ever done
there’s plenty of talented people who will play for free if ytou wont and its something promotors everywhere know and abuse on a regulur basis its wrong i know but its just how it is and i doubt it will ever change
i was resident for a big night and got to play alongside some of the top names in the business and at some very high profile events they always had big line ups and there was three of us all fighting for a regular slot so we were always trying to up our game to conpete against each other not one of us ever got a penny if we’d of asked it would of been the end of it for us thing is this is not some wednesday night at your local club these were massive gigs and i even got to do a 3hr set 1 till 4 am at a festival once to me the chance to be part of something like that was worth doing it for the love lol
i dont dj anymore but can see why people do do it for free otherwise it would be your competitor getting the coverage and developing a following which in turn sooner or later will result in you been able to get a fee as your rep would mean you’d fill a club
i would not be the same with production now though its purerly a hobbie and if i ever made anything that good i’m not desperate for succsess that i’d sign anything i’m happy been a family man these days so i’d wait for the right deal
Going to have to be devils advocate here.
I don’t see a problem with someone DJ’ing for free if it’s for the right reasons.
When I was starting out I was happy to do small gigs for free, and as I was good I proved my point and got more and more bookings, but with wages relevant to the type of gigs I was playing at - sometimes if it was a mates gig or i was getting to play alongside someone i rated or respected i didn’t mind doing it for free again.
But the point I’m making is it led to bigger and better things.
Another example was that I was allowed to start and curate a club night on someone else’s money - The night was free to get in, I DJ’d for free - but got to program the night, and to top it off we also had some really famous DJ’s come in and play for nothing more then cab fare, a Pizza and drinks - the club got nominated as club of the year in londons evening standard in 2000. All of this led to running a tent at Glastonbury, playing Pacha London, Gatecrasher and a ton of other venues which i’d never have got a sniff at if i hadn’t compromised.
I know for a fact that none of these things would have been possible if at strategic points I hadn’t been happy doing something for nothing - because essentially you’re not your promoting yourself.
don’t get me wrong I don’t think you should week in week out just play for free, or give your tracks away etc…
but looking form a purely selfish, personal point of view it can be beneficial.
I think the bigger problem is people expecting you to do it for free.
i think its down to indvidual cases like me the chance to play at a great venue alongside dj’s who you admire and respect is to good a chance to pass off in my opinion but if it was some fly by night promotor trying to get a freebie on a wednesday night at a local dive then i’d want paying
when i used to run my own nights everyone got paid from the unknown warm up to the guest it might not of been much in some cases but everyone was always happy lol
this what i learned Djing in my early days . because of headliners if i opened for them i wouldnt charge them my services due to exposure. now if they wanted me to Dj for free for someone who is not an established Dj i used to charge them overpriced booking fees. and one of the reason that i did this was, because i committed myself that i wouldn’t waste my time . there is no exposure there . so yeahh i think to certain extent u can Dj for free as long that there is lots of exposure assured ahead of time .
so yeahh , Djs that want to do this for a profession they need to act and think like their own business.
[quote]Aapie (07/10/2010)[hr]
I know for a fact that none of these things would have been possible if at strategic points I hadn’t been happy doing something for nothing - because essentially you’re not your promoting yourself.
don’t get me wrong I don’t think you should week in week out just play for free, or give your tracks away etc…
but looking form a purely selfish, personal point of view it can be beneficial.
I think the bigger problem is people expecting you to do it for free.[/quote]
This bit makes sense, you’re never really playing for nothing when you know the score like this. however when you turn up to a club/pub. if its for a decent venue and a ok promoter its worth dropping the fee for the potential gain in other ways.
i’m sure you know the sorta thing i’m talking about we’ve all turned up to events with hardly any people and a guy that feels like he’s only promoted this to his brain dead cyber kiddie girlfriend. it’s the jokers of this world i’m talking about dj’s that only play so they can say I’M A DJ or I’M A PROMOTER, I’M A PRODUCERS, I HAVE A RECORD LABEL.
I am two ways on this. At the end of the day it’s all about making money. I remember saying ‘if I don’t get paid a decent amount I have to go look for another job which in turn leads to me not putting as much time in to my productions and practising’. Causing me to not be up to par and I am in a catch 22. I can’t improve myself because of time, not money. But I need the money to free up time.
However it is a free market and we are all competing, talking about the way it used to be is not the way forward. Thinking of the way forward is the way forward. I remember when I moved from vinyl to CDs and everyone said you are cheating. I’m sorry I didn’t realise it was a test! I thought it was about being creative!
Clubs used to be thriving yes! infact the rest of the world has a massive club scene! What we now have is a thriving festival scene. The UK has compressed it’s clubbing scene to 100 summer festivals as the consumer wants to see it all at once.
With all this said I did give up a residency at Ministry of Sound as the promoter said he could replace me with someone who brought more people along with him. That was the ‘straw’ as such. I said go ahead use him if that’s the reason you want him to play. Needless to say in 6 months the promoter lost Ministry and a few other nights and folded because his ‘Brand’ was no longer associated with quality. This was not just down to me leaving it was his ethos on making money.
The sole reason we get paid is promoters and clubs see us as a marketing tool and that is all.