i’d like to understand something: when i have a kick and snare (with the lows eq’d out of the snare), and there is no appreciable freq clash, why is it that the output level is hotter when the snare hits?br
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interestingly, taking out the kick lows below 100 hz causes the level to remain constant for each beat with or without the snare…br
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it seems that looking at final waveforms of well produced dance tracks, each beat is peaked with or without the snare - i’m wondering if generally that is a result of limiting on the master and not so much the mixdown…
Stacking one sound atop on some other sound will increase the volume of that output. Because other frequencies are added to the ones from the kick the overall sound will sound bigger. The fact that in released stuff the kick with or without the snare are giving the same peak is due to compression limiting. You are correct there.
I’v noticed something similar while eq-ing, trying to create a proper mixdown.nbsp; And maybe I’m making a capital mistake, but it kind of works for me: I cut low ends off kicks!nbsp; So If anyone thinks I am a blasphemist in the electronic church that is house music, please tell me. :PPI thinks it’s all about the total amount of energy that your speakers are forced to produce throughoutnbsp;a certain length of timenbsp;(if you’re familiar with the term: RMS) whichnbsp;is not related to the frequency of the wave.nbsp; Obviously if you hit the speaker’snbsp;thresholdnbsp;in a peak they (or the amp) will start tonbsp;clip the sound.nbsp; But the RMS of a signal is a sneaky bastard sometimes.nbsp;/PPLong beforenbsp;clipping occurs,nbsp;it can be audible when trying to make a proper mixdown (the infamous “clogged up low end”).nbsp;For instance, I’ve noticed that cutting the very low end of a kick (say somewhere around 30 Hz) cannbsp;reduce the energy consumed by the kick that would be lost anyway on most speakers.nbsp;That energy thennbsp;becomes available to benbsp;distributed somewhere else along the frequency spectrum, nbsp;and can take away those nasty peaks on the limiter. (of course I should mention to also cut the low end of the clap to be totally correct but I assume we all knew that 
)PTo be honest this is what I thinknbsp;can do the tricknbsp;but I have never been able to check it on another setup then my home studio (which is far from perfect) So it could be that cutting low ends is a rather lazy way of solving the problem and creating a new one (not enough low “oumpf” anymore).nbsp; PSo I would be interested in any other views on this.
Multi-Band compression at the mastering stage will even out all the freqs so things will sound more level.
I have a related question to this, it’s one that i have been thinking about lately, as i’m confused about how people manage to do this:/PPI’ve noticed that in alot of tracks that i buy these days, the entire track is peaking at 0db for the entire duration of the track, even when only the kick is playing with very few other elements at the start and end of the track - WITHOUT THE BASS PLAYING AT WELL!/PPSo i’m thinking - if the track is peaking with only the kick playing without the bass - how the hell do they manage to add the bass, and then loads of other elements including some other sounds that are loud in the mix, such as a lead - without the track then clipping badly because the track is peaking significantly over 0db?/PPHow do they do this? If you have a kick peaking at 0db already - and then add bass and loads of other stuff - it’s going to clip badly, right?/PPIs this just exceptional mixing - or something else?
thanks all for the replies.br
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david, you hit my ultimate question on the head as i notice precisely what you mention on tracks that stand out.
In response to nicowuyts, I lowcut everything. The kick at 30Hz, bassline 40-60Hz, snares claps, strings/pads, vocals, etc. 0-30Hz are not really needed. Yes you can feel it, but there’s always some sub left in your track that the mastering engineer can bring up again.br
The main meat of the beat lies around 40-60Hz. I try to keep that one reserved for the kick. As you can see, I cutoff the bassline around that, but also apply sidechain compression to keep the kick signal clear.br
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The fact that tracks can have a kick at 0dB and add numerous stuff and still be at 0dB is simply brick limiting, but you can correct me on that. Getting tracks as loud as possible is the job of the expert (mastering engineer), but is not something you should aim at. You will loose all dynamics.
I do take your point A class=SmlBoldLinks id=_ctl2_ctlTopic_ctlPanelBar_ctlTopicsRepeater__ctl16_smAuthorName title=“View daniaan’s Profile…” href=“http://forums.sonicacademy.com/void(‘’);” #111;nmouseout=“#119;indow.status=‘’;return true;” #111;nmouseover="#119;indow.status = #119;indow.location;return true;"daniaan/Anbsp;about losing dynamics - but this is exactly the point that i am trying to make - these tracks that i am referring to sound great (i have bought them and played out many of them, and they sound really good especially on a big soundsystem…Pbut the point is that they have a kick that peaks at 0db, and then they add the bass, lead, and other elements on top of the kick peaking at 0db - yet the track still sounds great, and does not sound brick-wall limited/squashed to death!/PPOkay - much of the dynamics have been reduced in favour of ‘loudness’ - but these tracks still sound good./PPHow the hell do you manage to do that?/PPThe only thing i can think right now is…if you have your kick peaking at 0db, and then you’re mixing is SO good, that you only end up adding say 3-4db in volume on top of your kick with all the other elements in, then in theory your track would then be peak 3-4db over 0db, and this would equate to 3-4db gain reduction on the brickwall limiter? (which i guess is an acceptable amount of gain reduction)./PPDoes this sound about right - is this how they manage to have the entire track peaking at 0db the whole way through? Is it just amazing mixing?/PPIf yes…then i SERIOUSLY need to improve my mixing!!!
I would like to point out a little flaw in your above comment, David.nbsp; Decibels can’t just be added up together like that because by definition dB is a logaritmic scale (relative to a certain reference level).nbsp; For instance for sound pressure levels there is a classic example: ifnbsp;a type ofnbsp;vacuum cleaner creates 70 dB of sound, and you put two of these vacuum cleaners together they would produce a total of 76 dB (in stead of 140dB) .nbsp; So adding a signal of 3 dB on top of a 0 dB would only add a fraction to the resulting signal.nbsp; But nevertheless, it would augment the resulting signal, so this is not an answer to your question about how they manage to stack up all the sounds without seemingly overcompressing or clipping the result./PPP.S. I’m not sure exactly how the dB-indication on a mixer is calculated withnbsp;(what reference is used, which log-function,…) but I suspect it is a different way then for sound pressure levels
Yes what i meant was, if you added into the mix a combination of sounds, that when added together, would equate to a volume of 3db on a digital meter on a DAW./PPSo in other words, you have the kick which peaks at 0db, and then when you add all the other sounds to the mix, they would cause the peak meter to max out at +3db over if a limiter or compressor etc is not added to the end of the chain to tame the peaks.
Its only +3db if the sounds are identical as well so the combination of all the elements is less than you think. Are you talking about a specific track? Maybe we could have a listen/look?
I think that the idea is to export your track in a state where it never clips (even if that means mixing it down to a pretty quiet level) and limit it to bring the level back up. Remember that a well-produced track should never have two sounds at once at any given frequency, so bass is sidechained with the kick (that’s why the kick still has a presence when the bass comes in). That way, you don’t have to be too severe with your limiting. The compression work has already been done, it just needs bringing back up again by a limiter.
david, i sent conor dalton the question about maintaining peak when elements are added/subtracted and here was his response:br
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I guess the answer is not easy. The answer to this is that compression and limiting will mean the kicks are hitting 0dB, now the kicks are the loudest peaks in the track anyway so this is normal, and the other elements fill in the space around the kicks. Side-chain compression will absolutely help to swell in the areas between kicks. meaning you can push your track louder. br
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This is simply a result of a well mixed, balanced song, where every element has it’s place in the mix and doesnt interfere too much with other elements or fight for attention. If the track has been well balanced and the stereo field and frequency range utilised properly, then it’s easier to master. If it’s mastered quite “hot” and loud, then it’s common to see a waveform that is quite consistently hitting 0dB. br
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Some tracks that are overly compressed and pushed at the mastering stage will even have a breakdown that hits 0dBbr
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This is absolutely not desirable for the dynamic range of the song to be so squashed that the quiet parts are as loud as the loud parts!br
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It’s a matter of how hard the limiter is working and how hot the track has been pushed i guess!br
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hope that helps?br
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On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 6:54 PM, Cosmic Artistry wrote:br
Hi Conor. Thanks for the tutorials you did for Sonic Academy.br
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There is a forum thread that I am wondering if you could chime in on. The thread is at http://forums.sonicacademy.com/Topic93255-8-1.aspx. In particular here is the post that identifies the question. I’m sure the answer isn’t simple but any chance you could shed some light on the forum or with a reply back to me?:br
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I have a related question to this, it’s one that i have been thinking about lately, as i’m confused about how people manage to do this:br
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I’ve noticed that in alot of tracks that i buy these days, the entire track is peaking at 0db for the entire duration of the track, even when only the kick is playing with very few other elements at the start and end of the track - WITHOUT THE BASS PLAYING AT WELL!br
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So i’m thinking - if the track is peaking with only the kick playing without the bass - how the hell do they manage to add the bass, and then loads of other elements including some other sounds that are loud in the mix, such as a lead - without the track then clipping badly because the track is peaking significantly over 0db?br
How do they do this? If you have a kick peaking at 0db already - and then add bass and loads of other stuff - it’s going to clip badly, right?br
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Is this just exceptional mixing - or something else?br
That’s really good, good work sending the question to Conor mate!/PPAnd thanks Conor for answering./PPI think i will post a sample of the track that i am specifically referring to - so that you can see the waveform as well. Then i guess it will be easier for people to hear and see, and then comment on./PPI guess the trick is to mix and master the kick at 0db, and then try and mix everything else around it, including the very loud and punchy snare, so that it is not interfering with the kick at all, so that everything else can be mixed as loud as possible./PPBut you will see on the track that i’m talking about, the kick appears to be mixed and mastered at above 0db - particularly when the kick and snare play together, the waveform seems to be constantly cut off (clipping). I’m still not sure how they do this and manage to keep the track from not sounding distorted?/PPI’ll post the sample and you can see and hear for yourself what i’m talking about.
cool. i’d like to get to the bottom of this!