[quote]jon_fisher (04/10/2010)[hr][quote]dannyjlewis (03/10/2010)[hr][quote]slender (03/10/2010)[hr][quote]dannyjlewis (03/10/2010)[hr]… some ‘white’ people won’t fully get it… in my experience you’ve either got it or you haven’t ;)[/quote]
groove being a particular favorite subject area of mine) that a lot of white people don’t actually have a natural flair for it.
.[/quote]
bit of a stereo type lol i’ve met as many white guys who have Groove, Rhythm, Flair, style as i have blacks.
I think you can teach Groove and Rhythm it just takes a long time.[/quote]
Yeh, fair enough. . your experience has been different to mine, would love to hear some examples so that I can judge if you and I have the same interpretation of what groove is though. As I said, i’m basing this all on my personal experience so far.
You can teach Groove and Rhythm for sure… like I said, parrot style… but are the people making it really feeling it? Those who do it naturally just make better grooves.
This is ultimately why many producers employ or cut in on the writing musicians who have the ‘groove’ they want to add to their productions.
[quote]jjdejong0 (04/10/2010)[hr]Remember Africa is a very tribal country where stuff like drums and percussion are very prominant [/quote]
Small detail, but it’s not a country…
[quote]dannyjlewis (03/10/2010)[hr][quote]slender (03/10/2010)[hr][quote]dannyjlewis (03/10/2010)[hr]… some ‘white’ people won’t fully get it… in my experience you’ve either got it or you haven’t ;)[/quote]
I think if your going to make a statement like that, you need to explain yourself[/quote]
I knew it would be a provocative statement but it’s my personal belief (gained through over 8 years of teaching music production - groove being a particular favorite subject area of mine) that a lot of white people don’t actually have a natural flair for it.
There are exceptions of course - i’d say perhaps that 1 in 8 has a raw, authentic natural ability in their blood. I’d say that the majority of the people on this forum will struggle with hearing this from me but it makes sense as from what i’ve seen Sonic Academy don’t seem to cover ‘black’ music. For me, groove is all about a ‘black’ music feel - it doesn’t have to be made by black people per se but the mentality and vibe has to be there somewhere.
It’s funny, i’ve held many listening and analysis sessions over the years of some fantastic groove based music and many of the white people haven’t got it… particularly the ‘off the grid’ based stuff. Listen to Sa-Ra’s remix of DJ Mitsu ‘Negative Ion’ for the kind of thing i’m talking about… - YouTube
You know what, I used to go to a club called ‘co-op’ at plastic people in London and this was a place where some really interesting grooves could be heard - broken beat was the dominant style and as a genre had a very interesting groove. If ever there were a house track dropped it almost felt uncomfortable… far too rigid and formulaic in comparison. Just to give you faith, there were quite a few white lads making the genre so it does show it can happen 
So in my experience there are a few white lads who can sound ‘black’. . it is possible… but i’ll stand by my initial statement that they are in the minority. Sure you can study the intricacies of black music and replicate stuff parrot fashion but will it sound ‘real’? It might to some ears for sure but to others it could well sound fake.[/quote]
^^ Nonsense
There is rhythm in all of us … some people just are too stiff to unleash it … it don’t come down to colour it comes down to mentality. We all have the same brain signals feeding the same muscles … get a grip!
[quote]gavisthename (04/10/2010)[hr][quote]dannyjlewis (03/10/2010)[hr][quote]slender (03/10/2010)[hr][quote]dannyjlewis (03/10/2010)[hr]… some ‘white’ people won’t fully get it… in my experience you’ve either got it or you haven’t ;)[/quote]
I think if your going to make a statement like that, you need to explain yourself[/quote]
I knew it would be a provocative statement but it’s my personal belief (gained through over 8 years of teaching music production - groove being a particular favorite subject area of mine) that a lot of white people don’t actually have a natural flair for it.
There are exceptions of course - i’d say perhaps that 1 in 8 has a raw, authentic natural ability in their blood. I’d say that the majority of the people on this forum will struggle with hearing this from me but it makes sense as from what i’ve seen Sonic Academy don’t seem to cover ‘black’ music. For me, groove is all about a ‘black’ music feel - it doesn’t have to be made by black people per se but the mentality and vibe has to be there somewhere.
It’s funny, i’ve held many listening and analysis sessions over the years of some fantastic groove based music and many of the white people haven’t got it… particularly the ‘off the grid’ based stuff. Listen to Sa-Ra’s remix of DJ Mitsu ‘Negative Ion’ for the kind of thing i’m talking about… - YouTube
You know what, I used to go to a club called ‘co-op’ at plastic people in London and this was a place where some really interesting grooves could be heard - broken beat was the dominant style and as a genre had a very interesting groove. If ever there were a house track dropped it almost felt uncomfortable… far too rigid and formulaic in comparison. Just to give you faith, there were quite a few white lads making the genre so it does show it can happen
So in my experience there are a few white lads who can sound ‘black’. . it is possible… but i’ll stand by my initial statement that they are in the minority. Sure you can study the intricacies of black music and replicate stuff parrot fashion but will it sound ‘real’? It might to some ears for sure but to others it could well sound fake.[/quote]
^^ Nonsense
There is rhythm in all of us … some people just are too stiff to unleash it … it don’t come down to colour it comes down to mentality. We all have the same brain signals feeding the same muscles … get a grip! [/quote]
Let me hear your grooves then… can’t wait to be proven wrong
Certainly … you can listen to all my tracks here.
http://soundcloud.com/gavisthename
I am learning like the majority of guys at Sonic Academy … and if there were a tutorial on the type of groove you are referring to, then we would pick it up straight away, regardless of colour. Because you are aware of a production technique that some other’s are not aware of doesn’t prove that us (welsh/english/scottish/irish) white guys don’t have this groove in us.
Anything can be taught … no such thing as a “groove gene”
[quote]gavisthename (04/10/2010)[hr]Certainly … you can listen to all my tracks here.
http://soundcloud.com/gavisthename
I am learning like the majority of guys at Sonic Academy … and if there were a tutorial on the type of groove you are referring to, then we would pick it up straight away, regardless of colour. Because you are aware of a production technique that some other’s are not aware of doesn’t prove that us (welsh/english/scottish/irish) white guys don’t have this groove in us.
Anything can be taught … no such thing as a “groove gene”
[/quote]
You’ve got some cool tracks there for sure, good work. And yes, tutorials can help people to make those kind of tracks… I’m not talking about that flavour though… it still sounds like ‘white’ club music to me… despite the fact it has a cool groove… certainly good enough to rock a floor in the right place.
Do you play things in by hand and then quantize? or are you ‘painting’ in the notes?
Oh and BTW… i’m still learning too… we never stop… that’s what keeps this production lark interesting
[quote]dannyjlewis (04/10/2010)[hr][quote]gavisthename (04/10/2010)[hr]Certainly … you can listen to all my tracks here.
http://soundcloud.com/gavisthename
I am learning like the majority of guys at Sonic Academy … and if there were a tutorial on the type of groove you are referring to, then we would pick it up straight away, regardless of colour. Because you are aware of a production technique that some other’s are not aware of doesn’t prove that us (welsh/english/scottish/irish) white guys don’t have this groove in us.
Anything can be taught … no such thing as a “groove gene”
[/quote]
You’ve got some cool tracks there for sure, good work. And yes, tutorials can help people to make those kind of tracks… I’m not talking about that flavour though… it still sounds like ‘white’ club music to me… despite the fact it has a cool groove… certainly good enough to rock a floor in the right place.
Do you play things in by hand and then quantize? or are you ‘painting’ in the notes?
Oh and BTW… i’m still learning too… we never stop… that’s what keeps this production lark interesting
[/quote]
A lot of what I do at the moment is “paint” the notes in, I then tend to turn the grid off and move things about by hand to get some interesting grooves going. I would play things in by hand if i could get over my record button fear! :w00t:
This thread has intrigued me to find out more about this alternative type of groove if anything. Would be interesting to drop it in as a tutorial suggestion and see what the outcome is like from Sonic Academy members.
A good way to get the Sonic Academy Tutors to get onto these tutorials is to imply they can’t do it because they are mostly white and scottish! … ooo the controversy! 
Hey Gav
Aren’t the tutors on here Irish not Scottish. Small but crucial difference 
And Danny, I think it’s BS about there being a genetic root to groove. It’s a LOT more to do with culture and what you listen to from growing up, hell, in the womb even.
If you are born into a society that plays/listens to certain types of music it is much more likely that your ears will become sensitized to that type of music. Absolutely nothing to do with genes.
[quote]gavisthename (04/10/2010)[hr][quote]dannyjlewis (04/10/2010)[hr][quote]gavisthename (04/10/2010)[hr]Certainly … you can listen to all my tracks here.
http://soundcloud.com/gavisthename
I am learning like the majority of guys at Sonic Academy … and if there were a tutorial on the type of groove you are referring to, then we would pick it up straight away, regardless of colour. Because you are aware of a production technique that some other’s are not aware of doesn’t prove that us (welsh/english/scottish/irish) white guys don’t have this groove in us.
Anything can be taught … no such thing as a “groove gene”
[/quote]
You’ve got some cool tracks there for sure, good work. And yes, tutorials can help people to make those kind of tracks… I’m not talking about that flavour though… it still sounds like ‘white’ club music to me… despite the fact it has a cool groove… certainly good enough to rock a floor in the right place.
Do you play things in by hand and then quantize? or are you ‘painting’ in the notes?
Oh and BTW… i’m still learning too… we never stop… that’s what keeps this production lark interesting
[/quote]
A lot of what I do at the moment is “paint” the notes in, I then tend to turn the grid off and move things about by hand to get some interesting grooves going. I would play things in by hand if i could get over my record button fear! :w00t:
This thread has intrigued me to find out more about this alternative type of groove if anything. Would be interesting to drop it in as a tutorial suggestion and see what the outcome is like from Sonic Academy members.
A good way to get the Sonic Academy Tutors to get onto these tutorials is to imply they can’t do it because they are mostly white and scottish! … ooo the controversy! :D[/quote]
This is what i’ve found… that those who have the groove within them tend not to ‘paint’ notes. They will play their vibe in live and then choose how much to quantize (ie not always and not always 100% strength)
Really my whole thread of conversation here is about those who have a natural groove ability and those who don’t (and my opinion through experience of teaching classes of mixed races/nationalities is that many white english/scottish/irish don’t and need to work on it). Actually it doesn’t matter how you get there if the end result rocks a floor does it? There are plenty of ways to pretend/fake it using modern production techniques or tools but still for someone like me I will be missing that special ingredient ultimately… then again i’ve been brought up on black music.
To bring in one of the many examples - Rod Templeton was white and english… it can happen
[quote]jonsloan (04/10/2010)[hr]Hey Gav
Aren’t the tutors on here Irish not Scottish. Small but crucial difference
And Danny, I think it’s BS about there being a genetic root to groove. It’s a LOT more to do with culture and what you listen to from growing up, hell, in the womb even.
If you are born into a society that plays/listens to certain types of music it is much more likely that your ears will become sensitized to that type of music. Absolutely nothing to do with genes.[/quote]
Whoops I meant Irish … BTW did you know that Irish people are rubbish at Welsh Morris dancing … they just can’t seem to understand it (whether or not they would want to is irrelevant) … hehe
oh yeah my bad its a continent but you get what i meant.
I am always in the school of thought that all contempory popular musc has its roots in black music, but then whats the definition of black - listen to Indian or arab speaking traditional folk music - or are you saying just white people do not have that natural groove - which would include Spanish, greek and southern europeans which in that case I would not agree with you.
I know what your saying Danny but I truly beleive its not something in our genes but as stated previously its a cultural thing and what you were brought up with - If I was brought up in say New Orleans I may have a better understanding off groove.
I do beleive that learnng or practising with a pair of bongos would help anybody understand groove
But this is an intersting thread - keep it going 
I think its about indigenous music for the most part.
Compare Morris Dancing & Celtic Hiddly-Diddly Riverdance Music - to say, the samba or the drum rhythms from Africa - (The Continent - not the Lynx Deodorant ).
We can all take whatever & jump around doing the Haka all night & think we’ve got the groove, but its definitely more than that.
It can be learned & is without a doubt, possessed by many…
But also on the flip - lots of people dont have it & never will - regardless of where they are from or shade of skin.
The point is to steal a little of whats good from everywhere & incorperate it into your style. Cant hurt.
This thread is kind of making me wanna wipe the dust off my Akai LPD8 controller, load up some bongos … (make them velocity sensitive as I always do → Danny!) then tap out a killer groove in my pants!
Would be an interesting idea for everyone to upload a loop of a groove they have constructed by playing beats in live (with a little quantizing) … then we could see who got da groooovvveee!!
Playing in your pants is optional!
[quote]gavisthename (04/10/2010)[hr]This thread is kind of making me wanna wipe the dust off my Akai LPD8 controller, load up some bongos … (make them velocity sensitive as I always do → Danny!) then tap out a killer groove in my pants!
Would be an interesting idea for everyone to upload a loop of a groove they have constructed by playing beats in live (with a little quantizing) … then we could see who got da groooovvveee!!
Playing in your pants is optional! ;)[/quote]
nice one… yes go for it. I think my job is done here now. Please all try and put more ‘groove’ into your productions, the world will be a better place for it
funny how the discussion on here has prompted me to do something related to it later this week
Hey Danny are you teaching at Point Blank School ?
[quote]roben (04/10/2010)[hr] It’s to do with the genetic code and background, not skin colour.[/quote]
The two go hand in hand though - the genetic code for being able to understand groove is more prevalent in people with black skin, therefore the two are linked.
I agree with Danny’s statements. I’m white. Very very white (celtic background alas!). I can keep beat no problems, but the concept of groove totally eludes me. I sit next to a buddy of mine (who’s black) and he puts groove on a track and is blown away - me, it sounds exactly the same!
I think you’re all getting a bit defensive about the whole “black” statement. I think it’s quite obvious that it’s true, even if I do think “groove” is just a conspiracy to annoy me because I can’t hear it, no matter how hard I try
[quote]bouffont (04/10/2010)[hr][quote]roben (04/10/2010)[hr] It’s to do with the genetic code and background, not skin colour.[/quote]
The two go hand in hand though - the genetic code for being able to understand groove is more prevalent in people with black skin, therefore the two are linked.
I agree with Danny’s statements. I’m white. Very very white (celtic background alas!). I can keep beat no problems, but the concept of groove totally eludes me. I sit next to a buddy of mine (who’s black) and he puts groove on a track and is blown away - me, it sounds exactly the same!
I think you’re all getting a bit defensive about the whole “black” statement. I think it’s quite obvious that it’s true, even if I do think “groove” is just a conspiracy to annoy me because I can’t hear it, no matter how hard I try :)[/quote]
So you can’t hear when you add a groove template to a midi part? It’s a very audible difference to me…
i think you can teach the “white guy” groove if he’s really into music, not just one type of music. if he really enjoys a wide range of music and is in the right surroundings then it will happen.
This is of course just my opinion, NOT FACT
anyway i think like many things in life we are influenced by our surroundings and i’ve always believed that groove won’t come from the swing function of your DAW but i still think i can be taught not in the sense of books and science but in the sense of changing someones surroundings and influences, ways of thinking and living.