Ok this is really annoyinG me and worse is I don’t have an example so all I can do is explain it and hope someone knows what I’m talking about and knows how it’s done. Ok I been listening to some house tracks, stuff like koen groeneveld, funk agenda etc. Now they have a certain groove or swing in some of their tracks that drives me mad. Basically it’s just a kick and a snare doing a standard four to the floor rhythm with the snares on the 2nd and 4th beats. But the annoying thing is that the kicks don’t seem to hit on time. It’s like between the 2nd and 3rd beats the kick is playing a few milliseconds later so it’s like a slight pause between the beats. But everything still seems to play in time. I’ve tried moving the kicks back a few ms but it sounds awful. So anyone any ideas I know this was very vague but one could only hope.
give us some examples
Could you not post some youtube videos of certain examples from the producers you mentioned?
Take a look at the Wave file in your daw and see what’s going on? Should at least be able to see when they are hitting.
It could be a custom quantize grid. For example, on my Defected release ‘Ballistica’ I made a grid from a 70s Brazilian Batucada track and quantized my beats to that. The beats 2 and 4 were not on the usual positions… slightly out by a few milliseconds.
You don’t even need a custom quantize grid… i often move things about how and when I want to in small amounts - it’s a ‘pro’ technique. It’s a common thing for some producers to make beats 2 and 4 slightly earlier or later… it creates a ‘pulling and pushing’ contrast.
If it doesn’t sound right to you think about the other elements… maybe you’ll need to move them to help them fit the ‘non-standard’ grid. This all comes under the subject of ‘groove’ which is deep… you need to listen to lots of music from around the world to understand the subject fuller… listen to african, south american music… pulling/pushing is all over it… ease off from house stuff… listen to hip hop… dilla particularly to understand groove… some ‘white’ people won’t fully get it… in my experience you’ve either got it or you haven’t 
What’s skin colour got to do with anything???
So what, if you have more melanin in your skin you’re more likely to understand groove? pffft
I haven’t got any examples that I can think of off the top of my head but the technique really gives a great feel and kinda does give that suckin groove.
[quote]dannyjlewis (03/10/2010)[hr]… some ‘white’ people won’t fully get it… in my experience you’ve either got it or you haven’t ;)[/quote]
I think if your going to make a statement like that, you need to explain yourself
you could play around with ableton grooves tool and extract the groove from the track and add to your hats,cymbals etc.
cheers
[quote]slender (03/10/2010)[hr][quote]dannyjlewis (03/10/2010)[hr]… some ‘white’ people won’t fully get it… in my experience you’ve either got it or you haven’t ;)[/quote]
I think if your going to make a statement like that, you need to explain yourself[/quote]
I knew it would be a provocative statement but it’s my personal belief (gained through over 8 years of teaching music production - groove being a particular favorite subject area of mine) that a lot of white people don’t actually have a natural flair for it.
There are exceptions of course - i’d say perhaps that 1 in 8 has a raw, authentic natural ability in their blood. I’d say that the majority of the people on this forum will struggle with hearing this from me but it makes sense as from what i’ve seen Sonic Academy don’t seem to cover ‘black’ music. For me, groove is all about a ‘black’ music feel - it doesn’t have to be made by black people per se but the mentality and vibe has to be there somewhere.
It’s funny, i’ve held many listening and analysis sessions over the years of some fantastic groove based music and many of the white people haven’t got it… particularly the ‘off the grid’ based stuff. Listen to Sa-Ra’s remix of DJ Mitsu ‘Negative Ion’ for the kind of thing i’m talking about… - YouTube
You know what, I used to go to a club called ‘co-op’ at plastic people in London and this was a place where some really interesting grooves could be heard - broken beat was the dominant style and as a genre had a very interesting groove. If ever there were a house track dropped it almost felt uncomfortable… far too rigid and formulaic in comparison. Just to give you faith, there were quite a few white lads making the genre so it does show it can happen
So in my experience there are a few white lads who can sound ‘black’. . it is possible… but i’ll stand by my initial statement that they are in the minority. Sure you can study the intricacies of black music and replicate stuff parrot fashion but will it sound ‘real’? It might to some ears for sure but to others it could well sound fake.
[quote]roben (03/10/2010)[hr]What’s skin colour got to do with anything???
So what, if you have more melanin in your skin you’re more likely to understand groove? pffft[/quote]
Roben, please see my response to the other poster above.
While it’s a bit of a sweeping statement, it’s not that shocking really.
Nearly all the really ‘Fonkey’ genres are black music. Anything you listen to with one of those lip curling head bobbin grooves is gonna be funk, disco, hip hop, soul, motown etc.
Even Jazz and Blue note stuff has that lazy swagger that you just can’t teach I don’t think.
On the flip side, European dance always seems so ‘on the beat’ nothing wrong with that, it has a different flex, but this is exactly why I would like to see more breakbeat based tutorials, and not more house/trance ones.
To get a better understanding of tension, rhythm and syncopation.
I see what you’re trying to say but it was a very sweeping statement. Sure some of the best grooves have been ‘of black origin’, but it’s a bit wrong to say that just because someone has a different shade of skin, that they won’t ‘get it’.
We all feel groove and rhythm, even if some people don’t understand it. But that’s nothing to do with their skin colour, it’s to do with their understanding (or lack of for better words) of music, rhythm and structure.
Mabey a feeling of groove is something that has been a consequence of how different races have evolved. It would be crazy to say that just because a person is black that he is instantly great with rythm Ill refer you to a souh park episode where Cartman tells Token that he is the bass player in his band because he is black and will just know how to play bass. But mabey through the millions of years of evolution that races with and African origin just have a better feelin for groove through their genetics. Remember Africa is a very tribal country where stuff like drums and percussion are very prominant and this has been going on for centuries. But it works the other way too for example how many famous black classical composers are there?
the majority of the responses here have been rather defensive - if you read my response I didn’t say that ALL white people can’t make music with groove… i said a smaller percentage can. This is from personal experience… there may well be another tutor out there who has a different experience.
BTW - the comparison about classical doesn’t work for me - classical music doesn’t groove…
Also I should probably be a bit more defined in saying that it’s mainly white english/irish/scottish that struggle… i just put up ‘white’ as a lazy but deliberately provocative generalisation. I have indeed worked with some european students - french, italian etc who have successfully managed groove… but then geographically perhaps these places are more likely to have a touch more of the african gene than those traditionally from our shores. Africa is the source… the rhythms with groove that have spread around the world emanated from there…
@DannyLewis.
hey man i think i would hate to say this but you are right bro . My mom is European descendant and my dad is Spaniard. my dad told me similar thing about Music. all his brothers and cousins where in to music and bands. and was easy for them to understand the Groove.
really funny that u say that same thing, . but i dont think people should take it in an offensive way . white people might not have the soul or Groove to understand or feel the beat . but they can make really amazing melodic Music. so yeahh there is a balance. no one should be upset hehe 
[quote]alinenunez (04/10/2010)[hr]@DannyLewis.
hey man i think i would hate to say this but you are right bro . My mom is European descendant and my dad is Spaniard. my dad told me similar thing about Music. all his brothers and cousins where in to music and bands. and was easy for them to understand the Groove.
really funny that u say that same thing, . but i dont think people should take it in an offensive way . white people might not have the soul or Groove to understand or feel the beat . but they can make really amazing melodic Music. so yeahh there is a balance. no one should be upset hehe :D[/quote]
Glad to hear it. As I said before, this is all from personal experience having taught hundreds of people (of many nationalities) over the years. I’m just putting out the info that I have witnessed.
[quote]dannyjlewis (03/10/2010)[hr][quote]slender (03/10/2010)[hr][quote]dannyjlewis (03/10/2010)[hr]… some ‘white’ people won’t fully get it… in my experience you’ve either got it or you haven’t ;)[/quote]
groove being a particular favorite subject area of mine) that a lot of white people don’t actually have a natural flair for it.
.[/quote]
bit of a stereo type lol i’ve met as many white guys who have Groove, Rhythm, Flair, style as i have blacks.
I think you can teach Groove and Rhythm it just takes a long time.
I agree with jjdejong0, it’s really just down to genetics and family history than skin colour itself.
Generations and generations pass their genes off to their children, that’s simply all it is, the culture for people of African descent came from a period of that kind of music, where as in british decent it was more straight laced style music.
It’s better just to look at and understand the history of where our family tree genetics came from and the styles of music that was around for those generations at the time.
It’s nothing to do with your skin colour.
It’s similar to how people of african decent tend to be more often than not in better shape and more muscular than people of the western world. It’s to do with the genetic code and background, not skin colour.
[quote]roben (04/10/2010)[hr]I agree with jjdejong0, it’s really just down to genetics and family history than skin colour itself.[/quote]
Yeh, this is what I was talking about in my later post. As I mentioned before, i deliberately made a provocative statement to get some lively discussion going.