It’s the signal flow aspect that I don’t like dude, I see where you’re coming from but when i’m trying to be creative, the last thing I want to be doing is faffing.
I like how quickly I can do things with Ableton, where as with Logic you have to go about things in such a round about way.
For example, as a metaphore, if i wanted to put sugar in a cup, with ableton it’s like just putting the spoon in the sugar then putting the spoon in the cup, where as with Logic, i have to get the sugar from the top shelf, unscrew the lid, put the spoon in the cup, do a couple of spins then finally put it into the cup.
Less faff, more action with Ableton.
Some people like that, but it’s just not for me.
SO using Robens analogy:
Logic = Real Life = Sucks :hehe:
[quote]howiegroove (17/11/2010)[hr]Spon on Egg!
J. Hiz, signal flow means all about bussing, creating sidechains, etc. Live does these in the background. Logic, you have to do them long hand. If you want need a haircut and cant afford it, try to figure out Logic’s Environment and you will pull out all your hair soon enough.[/quote]
Ahh gotcha… kind of figured thats what was meant by signal flow but didnt want to be called out for not knowing anything 
But this is the specific reason why I moved over to ableton myself.
[quote]J.HiZ (17/11/2010)[hr][quote]
Ahh gotcha… kind of figured thats what was meant by signal flow but didnt want to be called out for not knowing anything But this is the specific reason why I moved over to ableton myself.[/quote]
1 thing you should not feel wierd about is asking questions on this forum however basic it maybe as someone will always helpout - unless its asking 4 a trance tut :hehe::P:D
I use both Logic and Ableton Live and I try to write ambient, tech house, techno, progressive, deep house, etc. Both DAW’s have their advantages and shortcomings.
I’ve used Logic for SO many years now because I followed others advice back in the day. However, back in the day, computers weren’t as powerful and there weren’t as many options.
If someone approached me today and said, “Hey, I wanna write electronic music, what should I get?” I would, without hesitation, say Ableton Live. I think Ableton Live is VERY user friendly and has a great interface to get your ideas out quickly. Logic is a deeper program, but it all depends on how deep you want to get into your DAW and how much you want to get out of it.
The only reason why I keep getting updates for Logic and why I still use it, is because A) I’m familiar with it and B) they keep coming out with some useful expansions for what I’m doing (i.e. effects, plug-ins, features).
I like Logic’s arrange page more than Ableton’s, but Ableton’s session view is FANTASTIC!!!
Others say that Abelton doesn’t sound as good as Logic. I think that’s bonkers. I think there are SOOOOO many things go into “sounding good.” It comes down to Audio cards, Monitor Speakers, 3rd party hardware/software and just plain engineering/producing, etc. I’ll admit, some of Ableton’s plug-ins aren’t great, but most are a good starting point. Especially on a budget. Let’s face it:
A race car driver is going to be able do alot more with a dump truck than a blind man with a Ferrari. The blind man with the Ferrari might look better, but when it comes down to it, what’s it all for???
That’s my SOAP BOX speech for the month. If I’m wrong (which I often am), then I always love to be corrected.
Matty B
OMG, I forgot to answer the question with my rambling above.
I agree, use whatever is more comfortable and let’s your creativity FLOW!!! Worry about what “sounds better” later.
Matty B
The only reason why you don’t want to use logic is because all the “gays” use it
The cool kids use ableton!
That’s it
haha!
Too right. I bought it because I wanted to explore Lesbianism.
How can Logic sound better? Better in what sense? They both process audio in the same way. If you are talking about effects and warped files…sure there will be a difference. But if you bounce 2 identical files via either program and phase em, silence will be the result aka they sound the same.
[quote]beepbeep (01/01/2011)[hr]How can Logic sound better? Better in what sense? They both process audio in the same way. If you are talking about effects and warped files…sure there will be a difference. But if you bounce 2 identical files via either program and phase em, silence will be the result aka they sound the same.[/quote]
The audio engine in Logic is better then in Ableton. You have to understand, that you cant really tell the difference, but a trained ear can. Now… if you had a song, could you tell what it was made in? Really really doubt it. But, if you had two exact songs side by side, you might be able to tell. Its really all about the algorithm that the DAW uses and what it excels at.
I’m pretty sure you can edit the settings in Ableton to pretty much match it though?
[quote]howiegroove (01/01/2011)[hr][quote]beepbeep (01/01/2011)[hr]How can Logic sound better? Better in what sense? They both process audio in the same way. If you are talking about effects and warped files…sure there will be a difference. But if you bounce 2 identical files via either program and phase em, silence will be the result aka they sound the same.[/quote]
The audio engine in Logic is better then in Ableton. You have to understand, that you cant really tell the difference, but a trained ear can. Now… if you had a song, could you tell what it was made in? Really really doubt it. But, if you had two exact songs side by side, you might be able to tell. Its really all about the algorithm that the DAW uses and what it excels at.[/quote]
No, that is not the case. The engine in Logic isn’t better than Ableton, they are identical. The way Logic sums audio is identical as Ableton given that the sample rate, bit depths are equal in both project setting environments. So, if we are not comparing the internal effects (Ableton Reverb vs Logic Reverb etc), or tracks in Ableton are not warped (warping causes audible artifacts and alters the sonic quality of the sound) the “audio engine” will have an identical output. So, if we take let’s say two drum tracks at 128 BPM, set the project settings to be identical (44.100, 24bit), turn warping in Ableton off (because Logic does not warp it’s material automatically), layer both drum tracks (just leave the volume at 0dbfs) and render it to audio, the tracks will be identical. You can test them being identical by phase inversion and silence will be the result. This is not a subjective test of trained ears, this is a scientific experiment.
[quote]Roben (01/01/2011)[hr]I’m pretty sure you can edit the settings in Ableton to pretty much match it though?[/quote]
To match what?
[quote]beepbeep (01/01/2011)[hr][quote]howiegroove (01/01/2011)[hr][quote]beepbeep (01/01/2011)[hr]How can Logic sound better? Better in what sense? They both process audio in the same way. If you are talking about effects and warped files…sure there will be a difference. But if you bounce 2 identical files via either program and phase em, silence will be the result aka they sound the same.[/quote]
The audio engine in Logic is better then in Ableton. You have to understand, that you cant really tell the difference, but a trained ear can. Now… if you had a song, could you tell what it was made in? Really really doubt it. But, if you had two exact songs side by side, you might be able to tell. Its really all about the algorithm that the DAW uses and what it excels at.[/quote]
No, that is not the case. The engine in Logic isn’t better than Ableton, they are identical. The way Logic sums audio is identical as Ableton given that the sample rate, bit depths are equal in both project setting environments. So, if we are not comparing the internal effects (Ableton Reverb vs Logic Reverb etc), or tracks in Ableton are not warped (warping causes audible artifacts and alters the sonic quality of the sound) the “audio engine” will have an identical output. So, if we take let’s say two drum tracks at 128 BPM, set the project settings to be identical (44.100, 24bit), turn warping in Ableton off (because Logic does not warp it’s material automatically), layer both drum tracks (just leave the volume at 0dbfs) and render it to audio, the tracks will be identical. You can test them being identical by phase inversion and silence will be the result. This is not a subjective test of trained ears, this is a scientific experiment.[/quote]
Awesome. Thanks for that explanation. I understood you the first time. However, tell that to an Engineer and a multi million dollar studio owner which he prefers and which he has in his studio and why. They all use ProTools and Logic in their studios. But dude, in the end, its whatever you like to use the best. And just because a program does the same thing, doesnt mean that they are equal. How they get there, otherwise known as the algorithm that they use to achieve the final product (the summing of audio in the master bus), since it is the digital domain (not analog) is the audio engine that they use. When you invert the phase, of course it will cancel each other out and you can achieve silence, because thats what its supposed to do. Doesn’t mean that one doesn’t sound better then another. For instance, if you are playing soccer (or football for everyone not in the US), if you score a goal outside the goalie box, does that mean that its worth two points? No. Its the same result regardless of how it was done. Bad analogy, but its the best I could think of at the moment.
Point is… All DAW’s are not created equal. PERIOD. Abletons genius is in the way it uses its warping engine to manipulate its audio. Can you achieve the same thing in Logic. Yes. But not as easily.
One more thing to add. Ableton’s feature set is not as extensive as that of Logic. There are things that are able to be done in Logic that you simply can not do in Live. However, you can achieve similar results with a little more work in Live. Other things it does them faster. And simpler. But, the difference in the audio quality is minimal. One more thing. Who uses Ableton as a multitrack recorder anyways? If you were recording bands, you would use ProTools, then Logic. But Live? Oh well. This is gonna be a long *** discussion…I can feel it already.
[quote]howiegroove (01/01/2011)[hr][quote]beepbeep (01/01/2011)[hr][quote]howiegroove (01/01/2011)[hr][quote]beepbeep (01/01/2011)[hr]How can Logic sound better? Better in what sense? They both process audio in the same way. If you are talking about effects and warped files…sure there will be a difference. But if you bounce 2 identical files via either program and phase em, silence will be the result aka they sound the same.[/quote]
The audio engine in Logic is better then in Ableton. You have to understand, that you cant really tell the difference, but a trained ear can. Now… if you had a song, could you tell what it was made in? Really really doubt it. But, if you had two exact songs side by side, you might be able to tell. Its really all about the algorithm that the DAW uses and what it excels at.[/quote]
No, that is not the case. The engine in Logic isn’t better than Ableton, they are identical. The way Logic sums audio is identical as Ableton given that the sample rate, bit depths are equal in both project setting environments. So, if we are not comparing the internal effects (Ableton Reverb vs Logic Reverb etc), or tracks in Ableton are not warped (warping causes audible artifacts and alters the sonic quality of the sound) the “audio engine” will have an identical output. So, if we take let’s say two drum tracks at 128 BPM, set the project settings to be identical (44.100, 24bit), turn warping in Ableton off (because Logic does not warp it’s material automatically), layer both drum tracks (just leave the volume at 0dbfs) and render it to audio, the tracks will be identical. You can test them being identical by phase inversion and silence will be the result. This is not a subjective test of trained ears, this is a scientific experiment.[/quote]
Awesome. Thanks for that explanation. I understood you the first time. However, tell that to an Engineer and a multi million dollar studio owner which he prefers and which he has in his studio and why. They all use ProTools and Logic in their studios. But dude, in the end, its whatever you like to use the best. And just because a program does the same thing, doesnt mean that they are equal. How they get there, otherwise known as the algorithm that they use to achieve the final product (the summing of audio in the master bus), since it is the digital domain (not analog) is the audio engine that they use. When you invert the phase, of course it will cancel each other out and you can achieve silence, because thats what its supposed to do. Doesn’t mean that one doesn’t sound better then another. For instance, if you are playing soccer (or football for everyone not in the US), if you score a goal outside the goalie box, does that mean that its worth two points? No. Its the same result regardless of how it was done. Bad analogy, but its the best I could think of at the moment.
Point is… All DAW’s are not created equal. PERIOD. Abletons genius is in the way it uses its warping engine to manipulate its audio. Can you achieve the same thing in Logic. Yes. But not as easily.[/quote]
I am sorry, please re-read my response and then yours. No offense, but when I give you a scientific proof that both summing “algorithms” are identical, you provide a response that sounds more like hogwash, bringing in million dollar engineers into discussion etc. Of course they use ProTools (Logic not so much) because it integrates well with big scale consoles, also those million dollar engineers do not record dance music, but it is mostly geared toward Rock and Pop. When it comes to EDM, Logic and Ableton comes to mind, because it is the proper tool for the job. It is rare that dance music is recorded in large scale studios. But then, that once again has nothing to do with your original statement.
“The audio engine in Logic is better then in Ableton. You have to understand, that you cant really tell the difference, but a trained ear can.”
If you sum two tracks using both hosts and the result is the same is all the proof you need, that they both sound the same when no DSP processing is involved (aka we are not using Space Designer vs Ableton Reverb for example). Now, if you are trying to compare Ableton’s native effects vs Logics native effects, that is like comparing Waves to Sonnox, they are simply different, yet both amazing in their own.
Please also try to remember we are NOT comparing features of Logic vs Ableton in this current argument, we are comparing “sound quality” or the “audio engine”.
So what other proof do you need?
You aren’t really giving proof either. So, your theory is hogwash too. Of course if you invert the phase, it should cancel out. Thats what audio is supposed to do. Its a digital sequencer. How it achieves the final product is different. So, in turn, it will sound different.
[quote]howiegroove (01/01/2011)[hr]You aren’t really giving proof either. So, your theory is hogwash too. Of course if you invert the phase, it should cancel out. Thats what audio is supposed to do. Its a digital sequencer. How it achieves the final product is different. So, in turn, it will sound different.[/quote]
Umm, I am giving you the proof, and the only proof a proper scientific experiment could yield. It is a fact, you just seem to be missing the point. Unless you are misunderstanding that we are not comparing Ableton’s native effects or Logic’s native effects or synths or EQs, the result will be identical and the inversion test proves absolutely just that.
When two waveforms are combined after one of them is inverted, they do not cancel out for the sake of “Audio is supposed to do that”, it does it because the material is identical in it’s frequency spectrum, the amount of energy recorded into the medium is identical.
If you record material into Ableton or Logic using same project settings and no warping, the material bounce will result in identical waveform.
If you combine 20 loops in both hosts without warping and bounce down the result, it will be identical.
Do you follow?
[quote]beepbeep (02/01/2011)[hr][quote]howiegroove (01/01/2011)[hr]You aren’t really giving proof either. So, your theory is hogwash too. Of course if you invert the phase, it should cancel out. Thats what audio is supposed to do. Its a digital sequencer. How it achieves the final product is different. So, in turn, it will sound different.[/quote]
Umm, I am giving you the proof, and the only proof a proper scientific experiment could yield. It is a fact, you just seem to be missing the point. Unless you are misunderstanding that we are not comparing Ableton’s native effects or Logic’s native effects or synths or EQs, the result will be identical and the inversion test proves absolutely just that.
When two waveforms are combined after one of them is inverted, they do not cancel out for the sake of “Audio is supposed to do that”, it does it because the material is identical in it’s frequency spectrum, the amount of energy recorded into the medium is identical.
If you record material into Ableton or Logic using same project settings and no warping, the material bounce will result in identical waveform.
If you combine 20 loops in both hosts without warping and bounce down the result, it will be identical.
Do you follow?[/quote]
LOL :laugh:
Putting it in layman’s terms there i see.
:laugh:
Brilliant.
[quote]Roben (02/01/2011)[hr][quote]beepbeep (02/01/2011)[hr][quote]howiegroove (01/01/2011)[hr]You aren’t really giving proof either. So, your theory is hogwash too. Of course if you invert the phase, it should cancel out. Thats what audio is supposed to do. Its a digital sequencer. How it achieves the final product is different. So, in turn, it will sound different.[/quote]
Umm, I am giving you the proof, and the only proof a proper scientific experiment could yield. It is a fact, you just seem to be missing the point. Unless you are misunderstanding that we are not comparing Ableton’s native effects or Logic’s native effects or synths or EQs, the result will be identical and the inversion test proves absolutely just that.
When two waveforms are combined after one of them is inverted, they do not cancel out for the sake of “Audio is supposed to do that”, it does it because the material is identical in it’s frequency spectrum, the amount of energy recorded into the medium is identical.
If you record material into Ableton or Logic using same project settings and no warping, the material bounce will result in identical waveform.
If you combine 20 loops in both hosts without warping and bounce down the result, it will be identical.
Do you follow?[/quote]
LOL :laugh:
Putting it in layman’s terms there i see.
:laugh:
Brilliant.[/quote]
LOL
In the digital sequencer playing back a waveform, it is all 0s and 1s, same on the bounce. You have to remember, we are in the digital domain, therefore a loss less format like WAV will be “decoded” using the same “algorithm” because that format is loss less and decoding mistakes/deviations cannot be made, because the result will be slightly different. Now, if you comparing the “color” of the effects in Ableton vs Logic, or their own MP3 encoders (which Ableton obviously does not have but if it would) of course they will be different…it is like saying the SSL Duality has it’s own better sound vs the Mackie board…well yeah…but nobody is forced to use native Ableton effects and nobody says uses Logic natives, I for example love WaveArts and Sonnox.