[quote]UnitedVision (06/04/2011)[hr]
@ jon. you are on the money about the differences between producer & musician… but the thing is some of us producers are most certainly musicians. My brother and I talk about this quite often, because we both play multiple instruments. Either 1 of us could sit in with a jazz band or a blues band and rock out till our hearts content. the point is… as a musician you have a disdain for ANYBODY who can’t write or play music but pays somebody else to do all the hardwork, bypassing all the years of practice, dedication and ambition it takes to become a professional musician/producer. Or heck even all the time it takes just to be a decent player. People that do this are basically saying that all the time that you put in to your skills as a musician mean nothing, because they have the money to pay somebody to do it.
[/quote]
It’s a gray area United mate. I don’t play a single instrument on my tracks. Most EDM producers don’t. I program them, I compose, I arrange, I do a lot of things BUT I don’t play.
This doesn’t make my music any less valid. Nor do I think that the time you’ve spent learning an instrument is for nothing and wasted. It’s a different discipline. Related but different.
Does that make me a musician? Well, that’s debatable. Perhaps it does, because I do compose from scratch (as well as use loops in some compositions).
[quote]jonsloan (06/04/2011)[hr][quote]UnitedVision (06/04/2011)[hr]
@ jon. you are on the money about the differences between producer & musician… but the thing is some of us producers are most certainly musicians. My brother and I talk about this quite often, because we both play multiple instruments. Either 1 of us could sit in with a jazz band or a blues band and rock out till our hearts content. the point is… as a musician you have a disdain for ANYBODY who can’t write or play music but pays somebody else to do all the hardwork, bypassing all the years of practice, dedication and ambition it takes to become a professional musician/producer. Or heck even all the time it takes just to be a decent player. People that do this are basically saying that all the time that you put in to your skills as a musician mean nothing, because they have the money to pay somebody to do it.
[/quote]
It’s a gray area United mate. I don’t play a single instrument on my tracks. Most EDM producers don’t. I program them, I compose, I arrange, I do a lot of things BUT I don’t play.
This doesn’t make my music any less valid. Nor do I think that the time you’ve spent learning an instrument is for nothing and wasted. It’s a different discipline. Related but different.
Does that make me a musician? Well, that’s debatable. Perhaps it does, because I do compose from scratch (as well as use loops in some compositions).[/quote]
no your right. I am by no means downplaying people that CANT play an instrument. because you are correct (playing + producing are different disciplines). I could not produce a track for a month and still have all the knowledge I have accumulated prior to my time away from the DAW… The same goes for playing (when you learn 2 play a song, you remember the song), but when you havnt played in a while, you will notice that you are “rusty”. I would actually bet that MOST producers, probably can’t play a lick. It does help if you know how to play an instrument, because you understand grooves & rhythm a bit easier… but is by no means the be all essential ingredient for producing a track.
What WOULD make your music less valid is if you paid somebody to write, compose & arrange everything. At that point, not only are you not playing an instrument, your actually not doing ANY work at all. Thats the whole point of this thread. Paying somebody to do all the hard work that you would normally sit there and do as a producer.
I would definitely make the argument that because you are the creator from start to finish, regardless if you are playing an instrument, as you compose & arrange the track, produce & engineer the sounds, and finalize the mixdown with your own hands… That you are in fact a musician.
[quote]UnitedVision (06/04/2011)[hr]
I would definitely make the argument that because you are the creator from start to finish, regardless if you are playing an instrument, as you compose & arrange the track, produce & engineer the sounds, and finalize the mixdown with your own hands… That you are in fact a musician.
[/quote]
My wife, who grew up learning to play real instruments (though no longer does) and her father, a very accomplished military band leader with some real skills with LOTS of wind instruments and backed for Frank Sinatra once - would argue otherwise.
Me, I don’t care really. I know I make music. Something I couldn’t do 18 months ago. Something I didn’t think I could do 18 months ago.
[quote]jonsloan (06/04/2011)[hr][quote]UnitedVision (06/04/2011)[hr]
I would definitely make the argument that because you are the creator from start to finish, regardless if you are playing an instrument, as you compose & arrange the track, produce & engineer the sounds, and finalize the mixdown with your own hands… That you are in fact a musician.
[/quote]
My wife, who grew up learning to play real instruments (though no longer does) and her father, a very accomplished military band leader with some real skills with LOTS of wind instruments and backed for Frank Sinatra once - would argue otherwise.
Me, I don’t care really. I know I make music. Something I couldn’t do 18 months ago. Something I didn’t think I could do 18 months ago.[/quote]
Understandable. I know what the older generation would say about this argument as well. But keep in mind, that generation does not understand all the work & effort that it takes to sit on a computer and produce a track. I’m under the assumption that your about 25-30yrs old like me, which makes your wife’s pop like between 50-70yrs old. This is the same generation that thinks tech guys are geniuses because we know how to fix a computer or network your house with WIFI. So their opinions are a bit jaded by the fact that they come from a different time period.
It was Bob Dylan that said it best: The Times They Are A-Changin.
:w00t:
add another 14-19 years onto my age and you’d be closer!
Composing chords, melodies and harmonies makes you a musician. Nuff said.
[quote]Roben (06/04/2011)[hr]Composing chords, melodies and harmonies makes you a musician. Nuff said.[/quote]
Damn I’m bu**erd then 
Anything is possible in Music Land of Fairies and Magical Unicorns
[quote]jonsloan (06/04/2011)[hr]:w00t:
add another 14-19 years onto my age and you’d be closer! ;)[/quote]
Wow you maybe older than me 
And THAT makes me feel sooooo goood
/sarcasm
[quote]jonsloan (06/04/2011)[hr]And THAT makes me feel sooooo goood
/sarcasm
;)[/quote]
Well you’ve made my day, gramps
ahh you young 'uns
Guys dont keep putting yourselves down by calling yourselves “musicians”
Your much better than that! Musicians wouldn’t use synths, drum machines, and samplers the way we do!
They play guitars and recorders and ****. I don’t want to be associated with them!
Keep it techno! :w00t:
[quote]Mussi81 (06/04/2011)[hr]Guys dont keep putting yourselves down by calling yourselves “musicians”
Your much better than that! Musicians wouldn’t use synths, drum machines, and samplers the way we do!
They play guitars and recorders and ****. I don’t want to be associated with them!
Keep it techno! :w00t:[/quote]
LOL - not been hanging out with Jan recently :hehe::P:D
jpgetty2win is a complet Tw*t
Edit: wrong poll
[quote]jonsloan (06/04/2011)[hr]I’ll start
Musician
One who composes conducts or performs music especially instrumental
Now, many performers would argue that we producers who cannot play/perform to a certain minimum standard are not musicians
Producer
Taken from someone else but I think it’s a decent description…
A music producer is to music what a director is to film. [/quote]
Actually, I think a better analogy is Music Producer is to music as Film Editor is to Film. A director tells actors where to stand, how to play, camera men where to setup a shot, and the rest of the crew how to record raw footage. The film editor takes all that material and cuts it up into pieces and puts them back together to tell a story–in fact, they can edit it to the point of changing the story.
Some producers are DJs that simply add a beat and do lots of crossfades–but some producers like Aphex Twin cut the music up into such small piece and then puzzle it back together again into something completely new and unrecognizable. I think that’s a form a musical creation using modern technology as the instrument versus your vocal chords or nylon strings on sound boards.
^^ Well put
[quote]TheAnt (05/04/2011)[hr]Does it happen really? I know that a lot of DJs produce as in the old fashioned meaning they make the decisions but use an engineer to do the work.
But does anyone have a track made for them with no input and claim it is theirs?
And if yes, how do we know? If you are paying someone for doing the work you will make them sign a non disclosure agreement, I would anyway.[/quote]
There are many a-list dj’s that have ghosts, i know this for a fact. There are also many trying to pretend they “produce”, yet barely know how to open a DAW
[quote]P-Shot (23/08/2011)[hr]There are many a-list dj’s that have ghosts, i know this for a fact. There are also many trying to pretend they “produce”, yet barely know how to open a DAW[/quote]
How do you know?
It’s interesting how people think they would be offended or distraught if their ‘favourite’ band weren’t writing the songs.
Surely you like the song because of how it sounds, not because of who wrote it?